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Well if all goes well the Renaissance as it was will come back and undo the 21st century.
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Tue, December 27, 2005 - 7:55 PMHot Damn! Glad I've got a dozen pikes, a few bills, a couple halberds, a couple muzzleloaders and some swords!
;)
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Wed, December 28, 2005 - 4:49 PMyeah the good ole days of plague, surfdom, and inquizitions. Get real, the romantacized renaissance that we enjoy playing at bears no resemblance to the filthy, brutal, and short lived experiance of our ancestors. Better that we should learn from the renaissance and bring the best aspects of it to enrich our modern life. -
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Wed, December 28, 2005 - 6:05 PMI would rather live it the real way than romanticizing it. You mean this society of nothingness and junk. Lets see, for your information they still have modern equivalents of serfdom. Also they still have plaque, people are still brutal they just hide it or not. So you would prefer to live in society of two faced liars than to be yourself? If you truly know of humanity you would not preach the perfection of the modern era.
O yes the people of the renaissance had convictions more than people do now. -
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Wed, December 28, 2005 - 6:23 PMA world with no antibiotics. A world with no effective pain killers. A world where if you need to ask a question of someone who lives more than a mile away, it takes weeks to get a response. No-email, no stores, give up most of the fresh fruits and veggies you like. No soaps, no deoderants, no anti-persperants.
One of my favorite ways to describe what we do at faire is this:
"We spend hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars to accurately portray people who, if they knew any better, would rather be US" -
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Thu, December 29, 2005 - 2:21 PMLets see, they had medicine, they did have shops, and markets, public baths, fruit if you could afford it, and vegetables if you grew the. I suggest that you look into the past before you start to comment on it. As for medicine, in the past 80 years is a lot of guess work, and I always though it was funny how doctors would dismiss old methods as wives tales and then when they found out they worked claim the methods as something new founded. How grand, our society shall look quite pathetic to people in the next five hundred yes as being the worst, silliest, and unlearned era of all.
O yes fresh vegetables are in such demand in a society where people live off of fast foods and preservatives, and junk food. -
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Thu, December 29, 2005 - 5:19 PMLike Bananas? Sorry. Kiwi? Nope. Oranges? Sorry. Corn? Nearly unheard of.
Clean water? Only if you collected it while it was raining, and then only after it had washed all the coal soot out of the air.
Yes, there was medicine. Leaches were a very prevalant cureall. Smashed your finger? Amputate it.
Oh, if you DID manage to cure something that wasn't typicaly curable, you'd get to stand trial as a witch and be burned. Good times! -
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Thu, December 29, 2005 - 5:59 PMAye, the grass do be eternally greener.
Now,
as then,
as always...
...'tis the best of times, 'tis the worst of times.
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Thu, December 29, 2005 - 6:02 PMPeople did not get burned at the drop of a hat.
As for fruit funny, only in 1502 the Portuguese start the first banana plantation in the Caribbean and in central America. As for oranges and I quote "It was reported to be growing in Sicily in 1002 A.D., and it was cultivated around Seville, Spain, at the end of the 12th Century. For 500 years, it was the only orange in Europe and it was the first orange to reach the New World."When corn was introduced it was a novelty.
When I travel I make a point to visit period gardens. Also in some Medieval & Renaissance paintings they show fruit trees.
Don't forget they also had nuts, berries, nuts, and melons. Melons were introduced to Europe in the late 15th century.
As for water people had fresh springs, some had wells, and some did not. Wine or beer anyone?
Read this:
gallowglass.org/jadwiga/he...gardens.htm
www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/...ange.html -
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Thu, December 29, 2005 - 10:10 PMYou only had a fresh spring if no-one lived upstream from you. That was the sanitation then. No flushers, sorry.
Of course, you only had a 20% chance of surviving childhood. Remember, people had 15 kids hoping that 2 would survive to adulthood.
Yes, you could grow oranges in Italy and bannanas in the caribbean. And it would take them 6 weeks to 2 months to GET to England from Italy, too. Do you have any idea of the spoilage? That made them VERY expensive, only the rich could afford fruit. And you had about a .05% chance of being one of the rich.
No, most likey you ate mutton and beans. Mostly beans. Every day. Day after day after day. And remember, no pesticides, either. You only got what veggies were left after the rabbits and snails had their fill. Oh yeah, no cold storage, either. Veggies were only available durring harvest.
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Unsu...
Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Sat, April 22, 2006 - 11:55 AMI'm not too sure about that.
In the early 90s, as an experiment, a SCAdian I know (who was a chemist mundanely) did a culture from scraping the inside of his armor. Damned if he didn't discover low-grade penicillin.
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Thu, December 29, 2005 - 9:59 PM{Quote}O yes the people of the renaissance had convictions more than people do now.{Quote}
maybe but if they stuck to them either church or state or both killed them. You need a better understanding of history. -
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Fri, December 30, 2005 - 7:59 AMVlad I think you are confused. You seem to think now is a utopia, that is pure modern north American arrogance. I have a great understanding of history, it seems that a lot of others lack basic text book information. Let alone true travel and historical research.
If you are going to say something all of you really need to stop making assumptions, it is very poor. -
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Fri, December 30, 2005 - 8:05 AMDuane, you say you are well traveled, then go to sub saharan africa or south east asia in many spots or even rurual mongolia (I know rural and mongolia are almost redundant) and it is 1520 for all intents and purposes. I'm sure you'll enjoy it until your next ear infection or infected cut that kills you because you cant get antibiotics. -
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Fri, December 30, 2005 - 8:45 AMNorth Korea
Afghanistan
Iraq
Most of Africa, Saudi Arabia, and South America.
Yup. 1520 is just a plane ticket away. -
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Fri, December 30, 2005 - 9:01 AM"North Korea
Afghanistan
Iraq
Most of Africa, Saudi Arabia, and South America."
Ah, this sounds like the typical American. Amusing.
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Fri, December 30, 2005 - 8:55 AMIf we are going to 1520, Europe and America should follow also. Like any time it had it's good points and bad, however that is life. Or maybe those of us in the western world can't deal with life.
If you are so worried about the brutality of the Renaissance, let me enlighten you about the brutality of the U.S.A. The country that hides behind declarations, constitutions, and democracy while at the same time committing genocide and horrific acts. For example In the 1950s when blacks were lynched and all the happy spectators including children would take joyous picture postcards with the twisted bodies, or when Andrew Jackson with the assistance of the army murder thousands of Indians, because he felt that they were a pox of the country. I don't even need to go on. So don't look down on the Middle Ages or the Renaissance as if your 20th and 21st century are any better, the only difference is that now people throw rocks and hide their hands. -
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Unsu...
Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Sat, April 22, 2006 - 12:03 PMThe 1950s when blacks were lynched? As opposed to what, the 1520s when blacks where being shipped to the West Indies because England had run out of Irish to enslave? Or 2006 when Blacks (and poor Whites) are being left to rot in Louisiana?
As far as I am concerned, the world is no better or no worse now than it was then. So there was no deodorant - so what? Everyone smelled so no one cared. As for the environment, people were throwing their garbage into their water supplies then as now...
History has a tendancy to be ignored and thus repeated.
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Fri, December 30, 2005 - 8:36 AMthere that explains it all.. textbook education. I know Lee and I read far more then textbooks, we have read actually written accounts and seen the manifests of ships and merchants. Please do not belittle those who go farther in thier research then textbooks. -
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Fri, December 30, 2005 - 8:47 AMThank you Beth! (Good morning, BTW!)
Oh yeah, ya want to go back to 1520, forget about ever posting on Tribe again! No computers! -
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Fri, December 30, 2005 - 8:57 AMYes, Lee and no more of your misinformed facts about fruit or anything else either. -
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Fri, December 30, 2005 - 9:01 AMThis thread is awesome. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Fri, December 30, 2005 - 9:04 AMyes it is so awesome I hope the moderator deletes it
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Fri, December 30, 2005 - 9:13 AM(quote)Oh yeah, ya want to go back to 1520, forget about ever posting on Tribe again! No computers!(quote)
He doesnt want to go back to 1520 he just wants to whine about how his life isnt working out and he thinks he'd be better off as some pesant (after all anything is better than being a poor pathetic schmuck in western culture except being a poor pathectic schumck at periods of our past where the rule of law didnt extend to you because you were an "unperson" you know pesant, jew, black, not Catholic....)
I wish he would give up posting, its fine if he wants to whine about his pathetic life but does he really need to do it where we have to see it in our tribes? there has to be a pathetic looser crybaby tribe around some where, let them all get togeather and cry about how unfair it is that we live in the wealthiest, safest, freest, and educated nations to ever have existed in history. -
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Fri, December 30, 2005 - 9:17 AMthought I was done ranting... I'm not. The Renaissance tribe should educate you as to where you've been so you can appreciate the sacrifices of those who've come before you to earn for you from their own blood sweat and misery the blessings you enjoy today. Also if you can learn from their example and provide for the next generation then so much the better. Yes there are many things from the Renaissance that are worthy of reviving but pick and choose wisely for the good ol' days where all that good and today just isnt as bad as it may seem.
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Fri, December 30, 2005 - 9:25 AMNo, I was making the point that, this society is cruel, so why do people act as if the Renaissance is so terrible. There is a great deal of injustice in the USA, however people seem to over look it.
You where the one that rained on the post in the first place.
If I like 1520, that is my delight, but for you to come here and assume to tell me otherwise is not your right.
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Fri, December 30, 2005 - 9:38 AMWhy would want to be a peasant? I would fall into my families pervious role during the period.
They had Jewish nobility in German, and merchants.
They also had black clergy, etc..
History and collecting antiques is what I do. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.Unsu...
Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Sat, April 22, 2006 - 12:30 PMWho "they"?
I will have you know (and I probably know better than most) that there were a very VERY limited number of Black clergy in what we would now recognise as Europe in 1520.
Indeed, by 1520 you would only find Blacks in barely significant numbers in Spain, Portugal, Scotland and England. They were very few in number in Italy and France and next to none in Germany. In Spain and Portugal they were mainly slaves though in Lisbon and other urban areas you would find Black freedwomen running inns, huckstering etc.
In Scotland and England, they (we) were mainly props used to in the Courts to show of the Whiteness of the noblewomen, or they performed as musicians. Then there are the prostitutes to take into account. Blacks were not (unlike the Jews at this time) considered a financial threat yet. It would not be until Queen Elizabeth the 1st was on the throne that Black Africans would be given the boot.
I doubt very highly that you have actually checked the rolls to see where Blacks were, what they were doing and what status (heh) they had. I have. And I know to look at the rolls with scepticism since "in period" most times the term "blak" "moor" "negar" (and the non-English variants negro/negra, nera etc) could refer to Africans, Native Americans, Arabs/Semitics and even East Asians.
Tell you what: go to my website (www.kmaitland.ca) and read all the books and journals there. While you're at it, check out my short article on the University of Berne website (www.cx.unibe.ch/ens/cg/sha...tland.html)
History may be what you do - but early Black European history was, for almost 10 years, my life's blood. Spare me the sweeping generalisations until you can state the hard and sad facts. -
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Fri, May 5, 2006 - 4:35 AMGood posts, Kristine. I got more out of them than anything else in this long thread.
I'm a former medieval/Renaissance history professor, and taught these subjects for many years before I gave it up because it couldn't even pay the rent. Many academics in this field don't want to interact with people they call "hobbyists" or "reenactors," so you will find very few of them on forums like these. I disagree, though; in my view, it's always refreshing when people outside the staid academic world take an interest in the history that preoccupies the minds of people like me.
That said, I'm rather dismayed at the way most of the posts in this thread have beat up on Duane. I know nothing about him other than what he has said here and what I can gather from his profile, but one thing stands out: He obviously had a hideous experience with Hurricane Katrina in New Orleans. I give him kudos for not making more of it; he only mentions it once or twice in this thread, and not anywhere near his first post. How many of us would be so modest?
I have lived through two major natural disasters, both of which caused me to think I was certainly going to die at the time. They both pale in comparison to Hurricane Katrina, however, in terms of scale. The overwhelming thing about the Katrina disaster is that these victims were left to die by the government they trusted, and all we feared about the ever-increasing wealth gap in this country became abundantly clear.
I would be the last person to say that things were better 500 years ago; again, I agree with Kristine on that. But the smug posts on the rest of this thread have left a bitter taste. Who are you to condemn somebody who longs for a better time, whether that's past or future? Have you ever lost everything you had? Suddenly been deprived of all the basic necessities of life, like drinkable water, food, shelter? Ever had streams of shit (literally) flowing by you? I have. So has Duane.
In case any of you have forgotten after so long, here was the entirety of his original post:
"Well if all goes well the Renaissance as it was will come back and undo the 21st century."
Naive, yes. Worthy of the kind of snarkiness and penis-fencing that ensued? I don't think so. In case any of you think I'm defending Duane too blindly, I will say this, after looking at his profile: The vast majority of the dozens of "friends" icons in his profile are of young women in suggestive poses. Nothing wrong with that; I don't believe in censorship. But based on this, I would suggest to Duane that perhaps his fantasy period would be more properly based in the harem culture of the Ottoman Turks of the 16th and 17th centuries.
Before you all go "LMAO" or "RFLMAO" or whatever else you want to do over my above statement, let me offer this: STFU--Shut the Fuck Up. If you haven't lived through the type of pain that this guy has, I don't want to hear your condescending posts. He is not a troll--hello, have any of you read the posts of REAL trolls in other tribes?
And for the record, I think it would be a tough call between the plight of French peasants in 16th-century France and the poverty-stricken "French" descendants--black and white--in the Ninth Ward of New Orleans. Sure, the latter supposedly had all the modern conveniences, but that's what did them all in. Five hundred years ago, that levee wouldn't have existed, and no one would have relied on a smirking "president" to protect them from the natural elements. Granted, it took the French way too long, but at least they EVENTUALLY got rid of their Bourbon-dynasty oppressors, as barbaric as it was. I'm not suggesting any armed revolts or beheadings, but can't we at least use our so-called democratic government to oust the Bushies?
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Fri, May 5, 2006 - 8:43 AMReally hate to add to this, but I must point out that many of us are Caifornians, and I was left homeless after the 94 quake when my building fell down around me, and had no place to live for a week, was in a red cross shelter, worried about my pets and how they were being treated, and so, thats that on the subject...
Life may not be perfect now, but most of us have done the studying to know it was a lot worse then. -
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Fri, May 5, 2006 - 8:55 AMI really REALLY hate to add to this thread agai, too, but, yes, I've been homeless, I've lived through a disaster or two, and while I may not be a professor of the Renaissance, MY WIFE IS, and she helped me write my posts. BTW, my wife is also a reenactor.
If you read the progression of posts, most of us simply responded to absurd statements, and tried to present known fact in the face of wishfull fantasy. I responded several times that Duane was welcome to HAVE his fantasies, but to impose them on a comunity as fact, would be met with fact in return. Yes, the thread got out of hand. Only Duane is to blame for that. Notice, the argument ended when he quit posting. -
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Fri, May 5, 2006 - 12:10 PMYou're right Lee, the argument did end when Duane quit posting. I thought about that later this morning and tried to delete my post for exactly that reason, but couldn't find any option to do that. Sorry for prolonging it. I would delete the whole thing if I could. But since I can't, I'd like to clarify my own feelings on this.
Beth, I'm truly sorry to hear about your experience in the 1994 quake. I lived in Santa Cruz during the 1989 quake; that was one of the disasters I mentioned. I got out of it a lot better than many others did, but the whole thing was traumatic and still stays with me. Obviously I can still get pretty uppity about it. After watching the Katrina coverage last year, I figured if I multiplied my experiences a thousand times, that may not even come close to what some of these people experienced.
I don't disagree with the content of the responses to Duane. My academic focus was the European witch trials, so believe me, I'm usually the first to object when someone starts going off about how great things were in the past. In fact I was relieved that many of the reenactors on this tribe recognized immediately the problem with Duane's statements. (Many academics dislike reenactors because they think the reenactors want to actually live in the past, which I think is unfair to most reeenactors.)
It was the tone of some of the replies that bothered me, and I was surprised that no one made the connection to his Hurricane Katrina experiences, except to chide him for failing to recognize that he would have been far worse off in that situation in the past (an idea I find dubious at best). One common experience that I think a lot of disaster victims feel--whether the disaster is natural or manmade--is the disturbing recognition of our utter dependence on all the modern technology we have created, with the simultaneous realization that all of that can vanish in a matter of seconds. And while no one would argue that in many ways we are better equipped to deal with disastes than we were in the past (better medical care, transportation, earthquake-resistant buildings, etc.), at the same time, that very same technology increases the possibility that the disaster will happen in the first place or that the effects will be magnified (by building double-decker freeways, levees, skyscrapers, airplanes, bombs, etc.).
I hope we can put this whole thread behind us now, and again I apologize for prolonging it. Clearly we all share a passion for the Renaissance, so let's celebrate that. -
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Fri, May 5, 2006 - 12:17 PMThank you. I agree.
Besides, if you read one of my first posts, it would debunk the idea that we would RATHER live in the past...
paraphrasing:
'As reenactors, we spend hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars to accuratly portray people, who, if they knew better, would rather be US'... -
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Sat, May 6, 2006 - 12:45 PM[quote]Besides, if you read one of my first posts, it would debunk the idea that we would RATHER live in the past...[/quote]
With me, I'm not exactly a "re-enactor" per se, I enjoy medieval/renaissance fantasy feel. I think we have lost some valuable traits/skills/concepts as we "modernized". I think we kinda threw the baby out with the bath water in many ways. I just kinda want to go pick the baby back up, and let the water go where it will. I'm all for crazy but fun things like jousting off the back of 4wheelers or plastic armour in combat sports. I think we should strive to keep the same look/feel of the original as I personally think the asthetics is one place we really lost some art work. Fairly certain lader hosen should never come back into fassion though ;-) We can reclame the good parts, but to return to it completely.... nah... short brutal lives with little hope of a better future.
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Fri, December 30, 2005 - 9:20 AMBeth then why would Lee make some statement about fruit that was totally unfounded? Did you even read his statement? If people would actually consult curators, books, and historians, etc., then one would not have to make ridiculous assumptions. People assume, and that is not research. Some of you make it seem that people did not even have gardens in these periods, or that everything people at was rotten. Or maybe you should read more eye witness accounts from different Renaissance cities. Renaissance Roma wasn't a half bad place if you could afford it.
However maybe I mistook from whose view you are looking at it from. You don't really state it clearly. However if you are looking at it from a poor persons view it shall be bad, however being poor or living on the streets of even this time are harsh. -
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Fri, December 30, 2005 - 9:31 AMI like the Renaissance, the building were great, the art was grand, people knew how to dress, the books were works of art. The wealthy had an appreciation for art. Also if you were lucky enough to be a noble you had all sorts of benefits. -
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Fri, December 30, 2005 - 10:32 AM"I like the Renaissance, the building were great, the art was grand, people knew how to dress, the books were works of art. The wealthy had an appreciation for art. Also if you were lucky enough to be a noble you had all sorts of benefits. "
Agreed. No problem there.
However, think about Polio, mumps, rhubella, measles, small pox, etc.
When was the last time the plauge came through town and killed half the population?
I portray a very wealthy man, Baron John Lumley. Who, despite his wealth, had to watch every child he ever had die.
Or how about 1520 power WITH wealth. HOW many kids did Henry the 8th have? Only 3 made it to adulthood, and only one lived to old age.
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Fri, December 30, 2005 - 11:11 AMwas so not gonna respond...
ok.. the problem is you want it to be 1520 again and the 20st century whipped out... gone pfftpp.. and if we point out why that is bad, we are ignorant and unlearned. Whereas it is from our studying of the renaissance that we know even with the issues before us now, we are at a much better place then we were 500 years ago. The renaissance was a time of great leaps of technology and science and other learnings, which is why it is called the renaissance. as an example to compare.. the printing press... suddenely more books were available and more people learned to read.. the parrallel.. the computer age, when more and more are able to communicate and share ideas and educate thenselves more easily then ever before. as to fruits and vegetables??? yes they were there... but hothouses were for the wealthly and they didnt have trucking firms and planes to get them to market in days, so you ate seasonally, so it isnt that they didnt, but they the transportation wasnt there.
so in a way the renaissnace and the 20th century are very closely parralled... major leaps of science and health and general knowledge.
so if you had perhaps said more of a comparision rather then wipe out... but do not belittle us or our education and research when you dont know ... or what we do or what we wear....
done with this for sure this time
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Fri, December 30, 2005 - 9:31 AMdelete ignorance please -
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Fri, December 30, 2005 - 9:41 AMThe Renaissance was a great era, it was not all about dress up. -
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Fri, December 30, 2005 - 10:53 AM"The Renaissance was a great era, it was not all about dress up."
The Renaissance was great for the Nobleman, not so great for the common man. Unless, of course, you were Irish or Scots. -
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Fri, December 30, 2005 - 11:04 AMYes, the English made their lives miserable, however England has made many countries miserable over the centuries.
However I would gladly be a Nobleman is Renaissance Roma.
Even in Boston during the late 19th century shops would band Irish people. -
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Fri, December 30, 2005 - 4:16 PMNo phone, no lights, no motorcars...
No fast food. No pre-packaged dinners. No microwaves, no gas or electric stoves. Cooking over an open fire which you had to watch carefully, one stray spark and everything you've ever owed, all your life's work, gone in flames. No fire department.
No DVD's, no TV. No CD's.
Tell me, Duane, do you own any of these items? Have you actually gone out and spent money you've earned to purchase anything that has come into existence in the last 500 years? If you have, you should look in the mirror and cry Hypocrite, before you belittle our way of life.
I've looked at your profile, and it mentions you like photography and movies. Give 'em up. No celluloid in Elizabethan times. Not even in Rome.
(BTW, I lived in MODERN Italy for 2 years and it was distinctly less comfortable than we have it here!
I also see you lived through Katrina. 500 years ago, you'd be dead. No warning, no help, no government assistance whatsoever. No bulldozers or pumps to drain the fetid, infested waters
Oh yeah, since you're so into natural foods, remember they had no irrigation. Irrigation is a 19th century invention. (Yes, Ancient Romans had it. They lost it, too.) So, if you wanted fresh fruit and veggies, you depended on the rain. Too little rain, you don't eat that year. Too much rain, same thing. -
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Fri, December 30, 2005 - 8:12 PMHow about regular baths and showers? And let's give a grand huzzah for the flush toilet! -
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Sat, December 31, 2005 - 8:55 AMHAH!!!!! Hey Duane hate to burst your bubble but you have no CLUE what you are talking about. First off the people you have been argueing with not only know what they are talking about but they are not just textbook learned like you seem to be. These people like myself have spent so many years doing real research about that era and reading actually surviving texts and accounts from that period that you probally would never even live to see the combined total years of the research they've/we've done.
I saw your little post about German Jewish nobility. Once again hate to burst your bubble but I happen to not only portray a german jew of the period but have done my research. Jews back then were one of two things. Closeted or DEAD. Even withen the militarty of the germanic states, basically mercenaries who were given quite a bit of freedom due to a proclimation of Emporer Maximillian, (there was no germany at that point) where it was much more inclusive and less dangerous to be something other than the regions predominant religion a Jew would still pretty much not overly publicize his religion for fear of being tossed out of his unit in unfriendly territory. Which considoring the general xenophobia that existed in most communitties throughout most of Europe at the time meant DEATH! People of the germanic states were either Catholics or Luthrens who were hunted down as traitors to the church. The Luthrens and Jews I mean, Luthrens having it slightly easier because the Chuch of the Reformation was still christian in it's orgin.
I love spending lots of money to dress up and pretend to be living in an era as Lee put it, "where the people living then would much rather be living now." But truth be told given the choice I'll stick with the 21rst century where it's a lot safer to live. Yes there is averice and deception in our society. But I'll tell you what ever hear of the Medicici's? You want to talk about two-faced and dangerous people there you go. The Church which was in essence a government unto itself, another form of control and deception and danger I might add. All it took was a person to claim you were in league with the devil and the church came in took your lands and burned/killed not only you but quite often your whole family. Danger of infant mortallity, skirvey as vegetables really really were not a dietary staple but rather a treat enjoyed more often by those who could afford such a thing or grew it in season. Death at the hands of the reigning bodies church or otherwise. Being pressed into military service you really didn't get to choose that one more often than not where death could come even quicker possibly as the marches were long disease sometimes more rampamnt and any wound taken in battle was fatal most of the time due to infection. You rarely ever saw one legged one armed vetrens.
I could could go on but I see no point in doing so. Enough has been said by myself and others whom I know and hold their knowledge of the period to be much better than my own. So I'll finish with Duane your heart and idea may be in the right place, but you really don't know what you are talking about and with whom you are argueing. Good luck if you happen upon a time machine go on back and perhaps we'll all suddenly be reading in our research about your horrible grissley misfortune. But at least you'll get your wish.
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Sat, December 31, 2005 - 9:07 AM[quote]I saw your little post about German Jewish nobility. Once again hate to burst your bubble but I happen to not only portray a german jew of the period but have done my research. Jews back then were one of two things. Closeted or DEAD.[/quote]
To be fair I think he was refering to the Kazar kingdom, but they were more Mongolian than German.
[quote]But truth be told given the choice I'll stick with the 21rst century[/quote]
Would you not also give him though that there are many things that society today lacks that more primative societies had? Things we could import to modern life to improve it rather than destroying the most prosperous civilization in history by reducing it to medieval standards.
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Sat, December 31, 2005 - 1:21 PMLance,
One thing I notice is that you some of you have a narrow concept of history. Those who study history should not make ridiculous and unfounded statements. Those who ruled during the Renaissance ruled, and that is a part of life. Why do you envy the Nobles, and the Church, if it was not for them we would not the glorious art that they commissioned? One can only point out the obvious, assumptions should not be made about the era or its people. I have seem many surviving texts from the Renaissance while in Austria, all being in a private collection though. You do realize library's from the period do exist, and if you are lucky you can get into them. I don't make accusations without knowing information. You assume to much.
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Sat, December 31, 2005 - 1:48 PMLee fast food is not good for you. Also do you spend you money your earned on anything over 180 years old??? Most over everything I owned is pre-gass lights. Roma was nice I enjoy going there all the time what was the problem? I also stayed in a Castle in northern Europe with no heat, and I liked it. First of all no one saved me I saved myself, I was trapped in my home two days with no food or water. I also slept in cold fitly water, and yet I survived. People of the Renaissance had ingenuity and common sense even if not formally educated, something that lacks today in most. However New Orleans would have been rebuild by now if we had people with a Renaissance mentality. Sad is it not when people of the 21st century cannot even live up to what those before them would have done. The water sat in peoples homes for three an a half weeks, and they are still finding dead bodies as of last week, you call that modern. A better job would have been done in the 18th century under a French King. -
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Sat, December 31, 2005 - 4:11 PM"A better job would have been done in the 18th century under a French King."
Of COURSE it would have, He wouldn't have cared how many pesants DIED durring the rebuild.
So, where would this 18th century king have gotten the resources to rebuild? How would he have drained the swamp? Remember, rennaisance building took years to complete, not months.
And yes, I'm very familiar with the surviving texts if the rennaisance. My wife is writing her DOCTORAL THESIS on medival and rennaisance literature. I myself am an expert on paper and the history of early printing, I used to teach it.
You may go right ahead and live in your fantasy about what you think the 1500's would have been like, (after all, revisionist history is a very popular passtime,) but don't think you can come in here and argue with experts and think you will prove us wrong. You will not win. -
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Sat, December 31, 2005 - 4:44 PMAssume too much?? LOL Though what I have and have studied are not the ORIGINAL texts they are copies of such. Where do you think we get our research the internet? Not even close. I have whole shelves in my library of books of about and from the period.
Envy the church and rulers of the period... Hell no, I'll admit that much art that survives to today were commissioned by the church and other rich benenfactors. But you will also note that the church was not exactly a pleasant nice thing. A little qoute we use is that the "Holy Roman Empire was neither Holy nor Roman." You would do well to remember that.
As for everything else I see no reason to bother. From what I've read in this thread others have more than argued the real historical facts. Funny thing is I know that quite a few other members of this tribe who haven't even sounded in on this thread have probally not done so because they were too busy laughing. Try opening a book rather than looking at them on a shelf. Spend a little time with a stack of various references including various dictionaries and really see what was written and what it meant.
'nuff said -
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Sat, December 31, 2005 - 9:00 PM"I know that quite a few other members of this tribe who haven't even sounded in on this thread have probally not done so because they were too busy laughing."
...banging the head on the keyboard, actually... :)
I'm not going to dive into a hair spitting rant, but while I agree overall with Lee's position, he has made a couple blunders in his broad strokes, such as irrigation.
Irrigation was widely used, although what was possible varied with terrain/resources, etc. Medieval Andalusia, Valencia and Morocco are three stellar examples of Medieval Irrigation turning veritable wastelands into breadbaskets. The Technology existed, and things, while certainly not nearly as convenient today, did function at a slightly less bleak level than he paints.
Please note, I did say "slightly"... :) -
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Sat, December 31, 2005 - 9:03 PMP.P.S. Please let it be noted that as soon as someone said "Let it be 1520", I ran for the armory. Nothing makes as strong a Defence in the Renaissance as a good Offense... ;) -
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Mon, January 2, 2006 - 12:05 AMPlease lets stop this thread ... stop feeding the troll..... -
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Mon, January 2, 2006 - 9:37 AMOh come on! I'm having FUN...
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Mon, January 2, 2006 - 10:08 AM[quote]stop feeding the troll.....[/quote]
which brings to mind a very important question.... When does baiting become feeding instead of fattening up for the slaughter?
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Mon, January 2, 2006 - 10:16 AM"...banging the head on the keyboard, actually... :)"
Oh, HELL YA! I actually had coffee snorting out of my nose, too! -
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Mon, January 2, 2006 - 5:13 PMOk, I've done a little more research on irrigation and found I was a just bit off base on that one. Yes, the Romans had it on a large scale, and yes, large scale irrigation was re-founded in the 19th century. But there was apparently some small scale irrigation durring the interim. But it was mainly to distribute what available rain there was, not to bring water from a far away source. So the basic idea still stands, you relied on rain, and not on importing water from a sure source.
I also went back and re-read my original statement on the fruit argument. My original statement was as follows:
"give up most of the fresh fruits "
It was then argued that there was an availability of fruits, which I do not discount. I point to the word "most" in my argument. Yes, they had grapes and apples, and whatever would grow in a cold climate. But I then went on to mention tropical fruits, which would have been exceedingly rare or non-existant. So I will modify my argument to state that you would have to give up the VARIETY of fruits available. But you still had to share them with the birds and worms and insects and snails and...
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Wed, January 4, 2006 - 4:19 PMLanc,
Sad that you make such generalizations about the period. Those Internet links where for the person who did not realize about gardens. Just odd that that people who dress up like a time period don't appreciate anything about it. It is so very odd how none of you had anything positive to say about the Renaissance, nothing positive at all. I have been to enough Palaces, and Castles, Pontifical or another kind to know how the wealthy lived. Also to enough European lectures on history, architecture, and the life of the rich and poor to know about the period. If one reads analytically they will know how splendid Europe was during the Renaissance. As with antiques, the quality of items from the 15th century to the 18th century are vastly superior to anything from the mid-19th century. However people would rather 19th century antiques than something from the Renaissance. Just poor.
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Tue, January 3, 2006 - 11:00 AMI'm with DM- I've got a squad's worth of gear, foreknowledge of all the major battles on the continent, and a command tent. On to Pavia!
"Jung Voll gebacht,Jung Voll gebacht,
Das Mann euch net
zu landsknecht gemacht!"
(Momma don't let your babies grow up to be landsknechts) -
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Wed, January 4, 2006 - 3:45 PMYes, well I must admit some of you are quite amusing. I am glad that D.M. informed you of your somewhat erroneous information. However it would be great to see the world cast into the 16th century. I would also have to say that Pope Sixtus the V would make a great ruler over the United Papal States of America. I am sure all of you would be delighted, if you like the late Renaissance so much. -
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Wed, January 4, 2006 - 4:20 PM*snicker* I think the others here know exactly where the amusement is coming from.....
and I am sure we will all chip in to buy you a c.. a trip back in time -
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Wed, January 4, 2006 - 4:37 PMBeth the fun part would be seeing you all and this country under the rule of a Pope as Sixtus V. A better world for all. -
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Wed, January 4, 2006 - 5:15 PMI, too have been to castles and seen how they lived. And yes, the nobels live MUCH better lives than the pesants. But we live much better now. Even people on welfare have a better quality of life than Kings and Popes did 500 years ago.
Yes, there are pieces that have survived to our day. But not everything from that period has survived, only the select few pieces that were done with extrodinary talent, not the everyday stuff the general population lived with. Guess what... there are things being built today that will ALSO last 500 years!
TWINKIES!!!
*JK* -
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Wed, January 4, 2006 - 9:33 PM"Yes, Lee and no more of your misinformed facts about fruit or anything else either. "
How about misinformed generalisations about medicine?
"As for medicine, in the past 80 years is a lot of guess work"
Yes, lets forget about antibiotics, or how we've wiped out polio, small pox, etc.
"Also they still have plaque"
Um no, nowhere NEAR the scale of the 1500's.
Also, I think we also need to be carefull about reading surviving texts from the era. Printing was only 100 years old at the time, and presses were exceedingly expensive to build, not to mention how expensive the galeries of type cost. Paper was till made by hand, and setting type is very time consuming. (Ever set type by hand? I have.) Oh, don't forget, it isn't just setting the type. Once you're done, it had to be cleaned and put away, too. And books had to be bound by hand. So it still took a good year's worth of labor to print a book, you just got more copied of that book than from doing it by hand. So only rich people had books printed, So you can imagine, they only printed what made them look good. Newspapers hadn't come into being yet, there was no reason for anyone to print a regular litany of the period's woes.
Oh, and if we can't come up with an intelligent rebuttal, there's always dismissal:
"Ah, this sounds like the typical American. Amusing. "
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Fri, January 6, 2006 - 8:45 AM"Also they still have plaque"
"Um no, nowhere NEAR the scale of the 1500's."
I must agree with Lee on this point. Advances in dental hygene over the recent centuries has greatly reduced the incidence of plaque amongst all classes of society.
Oh wait, are we talking about plague?
Nevermind.
(Sorry, being the smartass that I am, I just couldn't resist any longer.)
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Wed, January 4, 2006 - 11:56 PMDuane-with respect, here's ten pfennig to buy a clue.. Many of the replies are from fellow reenactors and historians who,together, have about a thousand years collective renaissance research. We are not your typical "north Americans". We know our facts at least as well as you, and go out and live the lifestyle for days at a time. Research? Let's talk Durer and Holbein and allegorical woodcuts.
As for your obvious Papist leanings, let me remind you , sir that there was a little thing called the REFORMATION going on; and the days of Roman religious power were numbered. With knowledge comes power,and the printing press was beginning to spread that power. Until then the very act of thinking for oneself and questioning some paradigms based on scientific observation and reason was a sure way to get censured,if you were lucky, and condemmed if you weren't. Please notice I said "condemmed"and not "burned"-the latter did not nescessarilly require the former-I know my Inquisition. To be honest, the protestants probably burned more papists than the reverse, if numbers are to be believed.
As I stated before, quite a few of the responses here are from friends..and my wife,Beth, who are dedicated military reenactors.We see the period from a first person perspective. We portray the pawns that were just a means to an end for these "enlightened rulers". And we know our Shakespeare as well as our Machiavelli. I perfer Talhofer (German sword master). BTW have you actually read Thomas Moore's book?? I have. And stayed awake while doing so. Actually, nothing much has changed since 1520 but the technology. As then, some people are turning their backs on the old religions to find truth (and a"God") for themselves. The have no wish to be told how,or to whom,to pray,or not to pray. And I have to point out you seem to be flipping back and forth from ethics to religion to politics in an effort to back your suggestion. We are simply responding from a different perspective; we've lived it, as well as studied it.. We know our stuff too.
Respect it.
Andy Bradshaw
military historian/reenactor
"Let us wash our hands in the blood of Rome" Martin Luther 1514 -
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Thu, January 5, 2006 - 4:55 AMWell if nothing else his half witted suggestion has sparked more activity here than has been here for a long time. -
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Thu, January 5, 2006 - 8:53 AMYeah, it's the best thing since the bibliographic pissing contest of aught-five...
therenaissance.tribe.net/threa...72f261
:) -
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Thu, January 5, 2006 - 5:52 PM[quote]Yeah, it's the best thing since the bibliographic pissing contest of aught-five...[/quote]
Party animals -
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Sun, January 8, 2006 - 10:43 AMO yes, read this: The New Jewish encyclopedia. New York, 1976. Behrman House (s.v. Heraldry and Titles of Nobility).
"In modern times, there are several examples of Jews inducted into the nobility of some countries (England, Austria, Russia, Italy). The earliest known example in modern times is Joseph da Fano, who was made marquis of Villimpenta in Mantua (Italy) at the end of the 16th c. Another example is Jacob Bassevi: a Prague Jew, he helped finance the Emperor during the Thirty Years War and was granted arms in 1622 as Bassevi von Treuenfeld: Sable, on a bend argent between two lions passant bendwise or, three eight-pointed stars gules."
I used to study heraldry and collect all types of seals, wax, gold etc. and if you read one shall find that they did have titled Jews.
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Sun, January 8, 2006 - 10:59 AMYes, the clothing has changed, the religion, and architecture, however you that deem yourself superior to those of the Renaissance and you are not. You are probably even more closed minded, and oppressive than the people of the period. Odd that those of the tribe boast to be so open minded and liberal. However with people its think and do as I do or. Americans be them liberal or conservative are the same, because they are to arrogant to see where they are going. Many of you are not different from people in the 700 club.
Why should america not be in the Renaissance, they are brutal enough. Americans prefer to hide behind Democracy and that they are the best place in the world, rather than truth. -
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Sun, January 8, 2006 - 11:19 PM> "Americans prefer to hide behind Democracy and that they are the best place in the world, rather than truth. "<
Well, if we AREN'T the best country in the best time so far on Earth, then we've got a GREAT P.R. department, considering that more people try to get into the U.S. every year than EVERY OTHER COUNTRY ON EARTH, COMBINED...
And MOST of them are coming from countries that are on a civilization level of, say, the 16th century... -
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Mon, January 9, 2006 - 4:28 PM[quote]Well, if we AREN'T the best country in the best time so far on Earth, then we've got a GREAT P.R. department, considering that more people try to get into the U.S. every year than EVERY OTHER COUNTRY ON EARTH, COMBINED...
And MOST of them are coming from countries that are on a civilization level of, say, the 16th century...[/quote]
ROFLMAO.... more have managed to sneak in here illegally than there were in Renaissance Europe... and yeah I know not quite but it sure is close.... -
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Mon, January 9, 2006 - 5:53 PMWell, many Americans like to play master so they do enjoy these beholding immigrants. Arrogant Americans, with their country of useless junk, and ugly architecture. -
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Mon, January 9, 2006 - 6:23 PM"Well, many Americans like to play master so they do enjoy these beholding immigrants. "
Like my next door neighbor, from Guatemala? The one who drives a nicer car than I do, has a nicer computer (I know, I built it for him), takes regular vacations to places I could never afford to go, that kind of immigrant? YEAH, I've really got HIM oppressed, I'll tell ya...
"Arrogant Americans, with their country of useless junk, and ugly architecture"
Useless junk like computers (Invented here) movies (Invented here) photography (invented here), these are things I've found that you claim to enjoy on your bio page.
Again, I have to ask. Do you have a car (invented here)? Do you ever travel by airplane (Invented here)? Do you ever make use of the public library system (Invented here)? Ever use the Internet (Invented here)?
You remind me of the type of person who drives his car to the big oil protest rallies, or who wears Nikes in the Human Rights marches. Every single time you log on to protest our lifestyle, you do so by utilising the very thing you villify.
As I have said before, you have every right in the world to think and feel as you do. But I also have the right to think and feel as I do, and I have the right to try to inform you that you are wrong about SO much. If you wish to define arrogance, why not consider the attitude of someone who can not ot will not change thier mind in the face of insurmountable evidence? You praise the old craftsmen for making things that lasted 500 years, then condemn us for making things that will last 500 years... Just because ours are concrete and theirs are wood.
Go ahead and live in your dream world. Just don't expect me to buy into it, when I know better.
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Mon, January 9, 2006 - 4:26 PM[quote]Odd that those of the tribe boast to be so open minded and liberal.[/quote]
When did I claim this? I'm generally quite the opposite.
[quote]Americans be them liberal or conservative are the same, because they are to arrogant to see where they are going.[/quote]
So you're going to humbly help them eh? BTW it is "TOO" arrogant.
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Mon, January 9, 2006 - 5:50 PM*S* Anyone accusing ME of being liberal hasn't looked through the pics on my profile... -
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Mon, January 9, 2006 - 6:14 PMWho accused you of being liberal? As far as america, no one knows where they are going or what they want. Conservative or liberal americans all sound the same, bla bla bla. -
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Mon, January 9, 2006 - 6:28 PM>"Who accused you of being liberal?"<
You did.
>"Odd that those of the tribe boast to be so open minded and liberal."<
>"As far as america, no one knows where they are going or what they want."<
I do. I'd be happy to explain it all to you as well, but then you'd probably accuse me of trying to force my beliefs onto you. -
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Mon, January 9, 2006 - 8:05 PMYou go Lee!!!! And Duane all I have to say to you is HA HA HA!!!! You really don't have near as much a clue as I thought you did when I first joined into this thread. I'm sorry to be so down on you but I SEE THE LIGHT and it's a train running right at you.
As for ugly buildings? Ever hear of Frank Loyd Wright? Oh and one final thing before I fall out of my chair laughing. I saw your little bit about Jewish Nobility in the 1620's well it's amazing the things that can change in 100 years. Think back to 1905 vs. what we have and can do in 2005, now 2006. In 1905 blacks had no rights unlike now, women couldn't vote unlike now, and so many other things that have changed. You wanted the 1520's and Jews then were not as well off as in the 1620's let alone now. So if you're gonna argue for a certain time and then use stats from another you just don't understand the flow of history very well. So if you're going to tear into the rest of us for our "lack of knowledge and understanding," perhaps you should get it right yourself and present a solid arguement instead of jumping around constantly.
Have a nice day!!!!
ROTFLMAO!!!!! -
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Tue, January 10, 2006 - 10:37 AMLace you are not every bright are you. Frank Loyd Wright's work is horrible. Why don't you prove they did not have title Jews in the Middle Ages and Renaissane? Obvious you and Lee are to consumed by your own arrogance.
I thing some of you have persecutions complexes, however that is your problem. I would be happy to see the Renaissance return, 1520 is a grand year. However most of you seem more interested in fashion than ideology of the period.
Very American of you, take something great and water it down. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Tue, January 10, 2006 - 12:24 PM>"Why don't you prove they did not have title Jews in the Middle Ages and Renaissane?"<
Well, the lack of evidence seems to support our side of the argument. If they existed, they'd have made themselves known. Prove they DID exist.
>"Obvious you and Lee are to consumed by your own arrogance."<
Hummmm. We cite evidence and texts, we quote period sources. You just say "No, it isn't". Who's arrogant?
>"Very American of you, take something great and water it down. "<
Hummmm. Who's watering down something great? We have EVERY advantage they had in 1520, and THOUSANDS more besides. Be very carefull of what you accuse others of, when you are far more guilty of the same offense.
And I wonder, do you mean to INSULT us by calling us American? Are you not American yourself? I am very PROUD of my heritage. Don't forget, we BEAT the English, at the time, the greatest miltary power in the world. In fact, we beat them twice.
Actually, I think Lance was being generous when he claimed you would have found yourself as a pesant under some nobel. I think you'd have been abducted while drunk from the local public house and pressed into naval service, living in the bowels of a ship, eating magoty bread and drinking putrid water, and forced to fight the Spanish hand to hand, until you either caught a cannonball or had your ship sunk out from under you.
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Tue, January 10, 2006 - 10:49 AMWell Blacks did not have rights in American in 1905, however they had more rights in pre america Louisiana. If you know New Orleans history one would know that free blacks owned land plantations and mansions in or around New Orleans in the 18th century and early 19th. From photographers, doctors, artist, merchants, etc etc. Do you know much about Louisiana? What is your point? What does that have to do with 1520? However if you want to go back to the Middle Ages that is fine. The Renaissance were a time of change and learning, more than anyone can say for this time period. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Tue, January 10, 2006 - 11:13 AMAs for Frank Loyd Wright, well opinions vary. As for everything else you obviously missed my point but that's ok. I'll try it again using very small words. In 100 years many things can and do change. I didn't mention pre-America Louisiana, you did. I was using that example to illustrate (sorry big word "make") my point. What you did by bringing up pre-America Louisiana was try and sidestep the point rather than actually taking the time to understand it. But that's ok. Much like many of the things you seems to believe about the charity, understanding, and gentleness of the people in the 1520's. There were great people, art, education and much more going on in the early 16th century in europe. As long as you were high born enough to enjoy them. But for the most part the general populace was essentially still living in the middle ages. Like it or not that's the truth of history. Matter of fact there are still millions of people living in conditions like the middle ages in 2006 but that's an argument for another day. So let us know when you step into your time machine and fly back to the 1520's. It will be interesting to go back into our research and see if you make so much as a foot note. Probally you will end up under the foot of some noble or soldier of the period but again that's just supposition. Have a nice day. I need to go and laugh off your attempts at avoiding the point. :) -
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Tue, January 10, 2006 - 12:34 PMROFLMAO
I suppose we are just raining on his parade to much by trying to bring facts into it.... there is a mindset/chip on the shoulder that just will not consider the facts in the matter, even though there are so many proofs that prove his points wrong. Far easier to call us names and degrade us then realise our facts or research...
oh well I have much better things to do, though I must admit the amusement factor is very high.... -
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Tue, January 10, 2006 - 12:37 PMOh, I'm having a GREAT time with this! Otherwise I'd have just written him off LONG ago... -
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Tue, January 10, 2006 - 12:40 PMOh, I will give him this. I don't much care for Frank Lloyd Wright, either.
I like the big glass and steel blocks.
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Tue, January 10, 2006 - 1:05 PM"I was using that example to illustrate (sorry big word "make") my point."
Lanc I am quite certain that I made many examples during my discussion however I must be suffering from your ailment of selective observation. Nevertheless it would behoove you to pay attention. Am I going to fast for you? Keep up.
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Tue, January 10, 2006 - 1:17 PMHowever it is poor upon your part to assume the people of today are perfect, you are in err. Humanity and its nature are far from unflawed in the modern era; this utopian perfection you conjure up is the making of only a few. So don’t speak ill of the Renaissance, they were not perfect however now is far from it. You must have your rose colored glasses on when looking at the 20th and 21st centuries. -
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Tue, January 10, 2006 - 1:29 PMI never claimed modern society was perfect nor would I. Modern man is as barbaric and evil as he was 100 1,000 or 10,000 years ago. The toys have changed the wars are the same. Still being fought over land, god, race, creed, and so on. Poverty still exists, as does famine filth and disease. Just on some fronts we are still far better off. So now who's being selective? You know what, let me check my closet I may have a spare clue I can loan you. -
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Tue, January 10, 2006 - 5:40 PMGive the guy a break! You people are too much....if he wishes he could have lived in 1520 Rome so be it. Why is there such vehemence toward this guy for stating his personal opinion here? -
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Tue, January 10, 2006 - 10:05 PMI have stated that he is free to think and feel as he wishes. But he insists on coming in here and degrading our society, and insisting that conditions were better 500 years ago, when they plainly were not. I simply wish to educate.
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Wed, January 11, 2006 - 5:18 AM(quote)Give the guy a break! You people are too much....if he wishes he could have lived in 1520 Rome so be it. Why is there such vehemence toward this guy for stating his personal opinion here?(quote)
guess I just dont suffer fools as easily as most... and this clown definately ranks right up there. though we are handicapped in any arguement with him, as we rely on facts and logical arguements he doesnt seem to be hindered by such trival things.
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Wed, January 11, 2006 - 7:57 AMAs they said, the vehemence comes from us stating facts as to what life was like, and this person coming back and insulting our research, life, country, religion, everything... Personal opinion fine, trying to destroy the facts is something else. This is a history tribe, I prefer to keep the historical facts true, not romanticise (sp) or change them to meet my needs. Of course we cant know for sure, cause none of us were there... and it is the "wipe out" the century that I think got most of us.. cause with all its issues, we like life the way it is, and not the way it was.. I like dentists and flush toilets and not having to constantly worry about dying in childbirth and a multitude of other improverments on daily life that have come about in this century.... education, no child labor, no *consumption* no dying from a cut on the skin... I can go on... -
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Wed, January 11, 2006 - 9:27 AMPoint proven here:
It is not possible to reason an individual out of a position that was not originally arrived at through reason. -
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Wed, January 11, 2006 - 9:30 AMBravo!!!!!
I yeild to the elequence of that statement.... -
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Thu, January 12, 2006 - 2:26 AMyour still doing it ........ stop ... please stop feeding the troll .....make it stop ......its all hurting my brain ...... -
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Thu, January 12, 2006 - 5:37 AMSHHHH its called baiting!!! Now be quiet or you'll scare it away before it is in the trap!!! This is important business, do you know what troll skin rugs sell for?!?!?!
sorry couldnt resist -
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Sun, January 15, 2006 - 1:05 PMI found this for some of you who do not understand why the Renaissance came into being. It is not proper do spread misinformation about period. If it was not for the Aristocracy and Church, the period would not have flourished.
Why do you envy them so, because of their great triumphs or wealth?
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#1 - The Term Renaissance was coined during the 15th or 16th century (ie. during the period of the Renaissance).
The Truth - The Word renaissance (meaning re-birth of revival) was first used by the French historian Jules Michelet in 1855. There were earlier writers in Italy who spoke about a cultural re-birth but the term we use today is of a much later origin.
#2 - The Renaissance period in 16th century Italy was a peaceful time.
The Truth - It was anything buit peaceful. Thanks to the French invasion in 1494 that sparked the Italian Wars, Italy served as a background for internal conflict between the Holy Roman Empire, Spain and France. Conflict amongst the Italian city states (Florence, Milan, The Papacy, Genoa and Naples, Venice) was also common. Venice and the Ottoman Turks were also at loggerheads in the Mediterranean Sea.
#3 - Florence as a society was very tolerant.
Truth - Although Florence as a republic was in general more open minded than the other Italian City States. Those criticizing the authorities were still often at risk. In 1498 Girolamo Savanarola, a Dominician Friar (and the conscious of the Florentine populace) was burnt at the stake for espousing view that were seen as morally severe.
#4 - The Church opposed the humanism of the renaissance movement .
The Truth - While this has some basis. The assertion deserves some clarification. Many of the Renaissance popes were ardent humanists who stressed the virtues of education.
Martin (1417-1431) - began Vatican building program.
Pope Eugenius IV (1431-1447) - Encouraged Greek scholars to bring their ideas to Rome. One such scholart was Cardinal Bessarion whose book collection was very extensive for the time.
Pope Nicholas V (1447-1455) - founded the Vatican library and enlarged its collection of manuscripts.
Pope Paul II (1464-1471) - although at times hostile to classical studies also supported the library and the Vatican University. During his reign printing was introduced into the Papal states and allowed to flourish.
Pope Sixtus VI (1471-1484) - encouraged the movement of artists to Rome. Started building the Sistine Chapel.
Pope Julius II (1503-1513) - Founded the basillica of St Peters. Commissioned both
Raphael and Michelangelo to work on it.
Leo X 1515-1521) - The Medici pope. Further grew the Vatican library. Encouraged the works of such artists as Bembo abd Sadoleto.
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Sun, January 15, 2006 - 1:18 PMThank you Don. They posses a great fervor to cast dispersions on the period, as if it lacked any admirable attributes. I am note sure why they like to dress up or study a period they abroad every aspect of though.
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Sun, January 15, 2006 - 3:28 PMNo-one said it did not have any admirable attributes. I'd much rather have lived in 1520 than 1320, no question.
It's the concept of erasing the last 500 years that I oppose. I'd much rather live in 2006 than 1520.
I find it amusing that your own post points out the barbarisim of the times, wars raging througut Italy and the like. Truth be told, I greatly prefer George Bush as a leader than Gulio DeMedici. -
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Sun, January 15, 2006 - 4:16 PMI would rather have Pope Pius V as a monarch than George Bush. If you recall the Medici family did a great deal such as building the largest library in Europe, more than the Bush family could do in four life times. Though who would read them these days, with so many people who don't care for books. So the 20th century was not barbaric in the USA, lychings, rapes, etc? Well, your leader started a war he does not know how to finish, while hiding behind democracy, the freedom of others, and the foolhardiness of some Americans philological state. -
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Sun, January 15, 2006 - 4:40 PMAh, you're one of those.
The war in Iraq does have an exit strategy, whether you want to belive it or not. But that's a topic for another thread.
Largest library in Europe, huh? Ok, fine. How many books would that be? A couple of thousand? Guess what. Any small town library is bigger than the Medici's library, and everyone has access to it, which was not the case under Gulio. And with interlibrary loan, anyone, anywhere can have access to nearly any book ever published. not to mention the internet, which dwarfs the Medici library thousands of times over.
Pope Pius V? You mean the inquistor of Como? Didn't I hear you mention something about being JEWISH nobility? Hummmm... A jew, claiming a desire to live under an inquisitor, and a hardliner against heresy? VERY interesting.
BTW, I got to thinking about what you said about architecture, how we don't build 'em like we used to. Ok, I'll agree, maybe we don't. But then again, they don't cost nearly what they used to, either. I'm sure you're caught up in the romantic notion of a king riding up to a field and declaring they'd build his castle there. Next scene, everyone is warm and comfy in the new castle.
Next time you see that movie, pause the recording between those two scenes, and leave it there for, oh, 50 years.
I'll admit, I don't have at my fingertips the specifications on any specific castle, but I can tell you about a building (in AMERICA) built to those standards. The Mormon temple in Salt Lake City. Built by hand, using expert stone masons brought over from Euorpe. An astonishing achivement, the building is a veritble fortress, made of solid granite, 8 feet thick at the base and 6 feet thick at the top. It will stand for a thousand years. But guess what. It took 500 men 40 YEARS to build. 40 years. Imagine employing a construction force of 500 men for 40 years. How much would that cost, in today's currency? Sure we could still do it, but why? We can put up a comfortable building to do anything we want it to do, in less than a year. And in 100 years, when it doesn't suit us any more, we take it down and throw up a new one. We aren't STUCK with it, just because it'll take half a century to replace it. -
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Sun, January 15, 2006 - 5:28 PMI am not Jewish. Did you know there are a great deal of Christian Royal and Noble families that claim and or decadence from Jews? However if you go back far enough in your family you would not believe who you are related to. that has nothing to do with the fact they titles Jews existed during the Middle Ages and Renaissance. Pope St. Pius V was an inquisitor, as was Pope Sixtus V, however last I recalled they corrected more Catholics and Protestants then Jews.
In dealing with buildings, your answer is that well we live in a throw away society, that has been the case since the 19th century. I can see remolding a building if it is in disrepair, however they go to far.
However in most cases you would like to build something that would last centuries, and not need to be torn down in five years. I imagine you would tear down Roma and place 100 story skyscrapers all over the place so to block out the sun.
Most people liked to build castles where you could best defend them.
I would rather Pope Urban, VI to rule the United States than Geo. Bush. -
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Sun, January 15, 2006 - 5:32 PMDo cathedrals count?
Last time I was in Milan, they had large sections of the Duomo closed off because it was falling apart and needed repair.
Perhaps we need more achitects like the guy who designed towers in Pisa... -
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Sun, January 15, 2006 - 6:42 PMWell done Lee I wasn't going to point out that Sirah Duane was making many of our points for us. Perhaps we should just pat him on the head and tell him that it's ok the tooth fairy does exist. After all he's for the Holy Roman Empire and we know how that went. Neither Holy nor Roman. I'm pretty much done with this thread as some people would rather keep their illusions rather than look at history on the larger scale of what actually happened. After all anyone can point out small facts and claim greatness from them. After all Hitler helped found VW launch the world into the rocket age and many other great achievements. Never mind the mass extermination of jews and gypsies and other attrocities. So you know if you look at things one acheivement or step at a time you can use that to justify any point of view. "Nuff said! -
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Sun, January 15, 2006 - 7:28 PMLanc if you would get your head out of the clouds you would know that our discussion is about. However if you and Lee were not to busy congratulating yourselves you would see how flawed your own society is.
As for those buildings, they are centuries old that is the reason they have structural problems. However why do building in the USA have structural problems, and start to fall apart. In this great and advanced society we have building with problems from DC, New York, etc. If you know about architecture you will know the ones I am speaking of. I do, and they are not even 110 years old.
Both of you are so blinded by your arrogance that you remind me of the FBI and CIA.
Your arguments if you can call them that are ridiculous and without merit, and what does Hitler have to do with anything besides Bush? This is about how great the Renaissance was, and however the current culture in America is a simple shell.
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Sun, January 15, 2006 - 7:56 PMI imagine you were never taught to appreciate the time and care that when into items. The Renaissance is gone however it left behind great works of art, architecture, literature, clothing, and splendid jewels. As for America, when it is gone the only things left in 500 years will be styrofoam cups, nuclear waste, a ton of garbage, and a great legacy of pollution no one shall forget. -
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Sun, January 15, 2006 - 9:03 PMMaybe. And there will be people having 21st century faires, where they all dress up in mullets and spandex, and talk about how much better things were in the early 21st century. -
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Sun, January 15, 2006 - 9:06 PMAh some people just don't get it.
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Sun, January 22, 2006 - 9:06 PMGive America a chance, after all we are only 300 years old? As for great creations... Boston, Philidelphia and Maryland had some great furniture makers who's products have out gained their original sale prices ten fold in a little over 200 years. How about the Great American Silver Smiths who took the old Rennisasance styles and improved upon the smelting techniques of the masters to put forth Federal and Repose Sterling Silver that is sought after world wide. Jewells and cloths and so on and so forth... the Renniasance stuff was beautiful I will grant you but at what cost? I own and run my very own antique shop. I have been an antiquities dealer for the better part of six years and a collector since I was twelve and I tell you what.. No one wants to buy antique Rennisance stuff accept the museums. they still cost too much.... You had great families standing on the back of the surfs that lived on their land raking in 9/10 of the income from the sweat of the brow of people who toiled on the land night and day and were barely left with enough to feed themselves. Imagine being taxed 9/10 of your income just to live on "protected land". And how where you protected when trouble came? You where the front line with a pitch fork in your hand against plague and pestilence, cut down wihtout a second thaught because a Lord could always attract new surfs... The Renniasance was a glorious and far reaching time in history for about a fifth of the population of Northern Europe. Screw everyone else, North Africa, Middle East and China? They had had their Renniasances over and over again. New King brought new Renniasance. But those places didn't count until they were under English Rule and when the sun finally set on the Great English Empire the devistation was crazy and that was only 200 years ago. Look the Renniasance you see in your reading and your romantisizing is not at all what reality had it to be. I don't like the current leader of the country but there has been a group of people to dislike the president every term since Jefferson took office. If the Democrats ilke him the Republican hate him and Vice Versa. As for buildings and architecture, and I have been buying and selling Realestate for three years now... BUildings fall down because the ground moves and because people don't keep them up. Castles were designed to withstand seiges and attack, and they cost a fortune to heat. There were scores of wrokers, often poorly paid and baddly treated people who only stayed fro lack of any choice who toiled night and day to heat the stuffy small, unsanitary and poorly ventilated living quarters of a castle. People didn't live in fortresses... People lived in "Towers" where the walls were six feet thick because the stone used was so heacy the walls had to be that thick or they would crumble under their own weight. Cathedrals only got to be so big because of Flying Butresses, otherwise they are just house of glass and those are impossible to heat as well. But none are meant to live in Cathedrals either. Cathedrals are where dead bodies are entombed. the Abbots of Cathedrals has cozy little cottages out back. Enjoy the great works of art that survive at the local museum, go ahead and long for the time that you might have been invited to a grand ball in the Hall of Mirrors and danced till sunset while common people starved and the rats ate away at the grain that would make your bread and that bread would give you typhoid and you would die. We may not be so far better then they were but more of us can enjoy the ilfestyle that you long for in the present than were ever able to be "the haves" then. The Holy Roman Empire put thousands of people to death in the name of god for the sake of controlling more land and more money than anyone would give them willingly, don't thik that is noble in any time. America does not put people to death in order to control their land and wealth. We don't -
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Re: Let it be 1520 again!
Sun, January 22, 2006 - 9:07 PMSorry ranted too long. Thank you for your time.
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