Let it be 1520 again!

topic posted Tue, December 27, 2005 - 7:45 PM by  Duane L.
Well if all goes well the Renaissance as it was will come back and undo the 21st century.
posted by:
Duane L.
New Orleans
  • Re: Let it be 1520 again!

    Wed, December 28, 2005 - 4:49 PM
    yeah the good ole days of plague, surfdom, and inquizitions. Get real, the romantacized renaissance that we enjoy playing at bears no resemblance to the filthy, brutal, and short lived experiance of our ancestors. Better that we should learn from the renaissance and bring the best aspects of it to enrich our modern life.
    • Re: Let it be 1520 again!

      Wed, December 28, 2005 - 6:05 PM
      I would rather live it the real way than romanticizing it. You mean this society of nothingness and junk. Lets see, for your information they still have modern equivalents of serfdom. Also they still have plaque, people are still brutal they just hide it or not. So you would prefer to live in society of two faced liars than to be yourself? If you truly know of humanity you would not preach the perfection of the modern era.
      O yes the people of the renaissance had convictions more than people do now.
      • Re: Let it be 1520 again!

        Wed, December 28, 2005 - 6:23 PM
        A world with no antibiotics. A world with no effective pain killers. A world where if you need to ask a question of someone who lives more than a mile away, it takes weeks to get a response. No-email, no stores, give up most of the fresh fruits and veggies you like. No soaps, no deoderants, no anti-persperants.

        One of my favorite ways to describe what we do at faire is this:

        "We spend hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars to accurately portray people who, if they knew any better, would rather be US"
        • Re: Let it be 1520 again!

          Thu, December 29, 2005 - 2:21 PM
          Lets see, they had medicine, they did have shops, and markets, public baths, fruit if you could afford it, and vegetables if you grew the. I suggest that you look into the past before you start to comment on it. As for medicine, in the past 80 years is a lot of guess work, and I always though it was funny how doctors would dismiss old methods as wives tales and then when they found out they worked claim the methods as something new founded. How grand, our society shall look quite pathetic to people in the next five hundred yes as being the worst, silliest, and unlearned era of all.

          O yes fresh vegetables are in such demand in a society where people live off of fast foods and preservatives, and junk food.
          • Re: Let it be 1520 again!

            Thu, December 29, 2005 - 5:19 PM
            Like Bananas? Sorry. Kiwi? Nope. Oranges? Sorry. Corn? Nearly unheard of.

            Clean water? Only if you collected it while it was raining, and then only after it had washed all the coal soot out of the air.

            Yes, there was medicine. Leaches were a very prevalant cureall. Smashed your finger? Amputate it.

            Oh, if you DID manage to cure something that wasn't typicaly curable, you'd get to stand trial as a witch and be burned. Good times!
            • Re: Let it be 1520 again!

              Thu, December 29, 2005 - 6:02 PM
              People did not get burned at the drop of a hat.

              As for fruit funny, only in 1502 the Portuguese start the first banana plantation in the Caribbean and in central America. As for oranges and I quote "It was reported to be growing in Sicily in 1002 A.D., and it was cultivated around Seville, Spain, at the end of the 12th Century. For 500 years, it was the only orange in Europe and it was the first orange to reach the New World."When corn was introduced it was a novelty.
              When I travel I make a point to visit period gardens. Also in some Medieval & Renaissance paintings they show fruit trees.
              Don't forget they also had nuts, berries, nuts, and melons. Melons were introduced to Europe in the late 15th century.

              As for water people had fresh springs, some had wells, and some did not. Wine or beer anyone?

              Read this:
              gallowglass.org/jadwiga/he...gardens.htm

              www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/...ange.html
              • Re: Let it be 1520 again!

                Thu, December 29, 2005 - 10:10 PM
                You only had a fresh spring if no-one lived upstream from you. That was the sanitation then. No flushers, sorry.

                Of course, you only had a 20% chance of surviving childhood. Remember, people had 15 kids hoping that 2 would survive to adulthood.

                Yes, you could grow oranges in Italy and bannanas in the caribbean. And it would take them 6 weeks to 2 months to GET to England from Italy, too. Do you have any idea of the spoilage? That made them VERY expensive, only the rich could afford fruit. And you had about a .05% chance of being one of the rich.

                No, most likey you ate mutton and beans. Mostly beans. Every day. Day after day after day. And remember, no pesticides, either. You only got what veggies were left after the rabbits and snails had their fill. Oh yeah, no cold storage, either. Veggies were only available durring harvest.
        • Unsu...
           

          Re: Let it be 1520 again!

          Sat, April 22, 2006 - 11:55 AM
          I'm not too sure about that.

          In the early 90s, as an experiment, a SCAdian I know (who was a chemist mundanely) did a culture from scraping the inside of his armor. Damned if he didn't discover low-grade penicillin.
      • Re: Let it be 1520 again!

        Thu, December 29, 2005 - 9:59 PM
        {Quote}O yes the people of the renaissance had convictions more than people do now.{Quote}

        maybe but if they stuck to them either church or state or both killed them. You need a better understanding of history.
        • Re: Let it be 1520 again!

          Fri, December 30, 2005 - 7:59 AM
          Vlad I think you are confused. You seem to think now is a utopia, that is pure modern north American arrogance. I have a great understanding of history, it seems that a lot of others lack basic text book information. Let alone true travel and historical research.
          If you are going to say something all of you really need to stop making assumptions, it is very poor.
          • Re: Let it be 1520 again!

            Fri, December 30, 2005 - 8:05 AM
            Duane, you say you are well traveled, then go to sub saharan africa or south east asia in many spots or even rurual mongolia (I know rural and mongolia are almost redundant) and it is 1520 for all intents and purposes. I'm sure you'll enjoy it until your next ear infection or infected cut that kills you because you cant get antibiotics.
            • Re: Let it be 1520 again!

              Fri, December 30, 2005 - 8:55 AM
              If we are going to 1520, Europe and America should follow also. Like any time it had it's good points and bad, however that is life. Or maybe those of us in the western world can't deal with life.

              If you are so worried about the brutality of the Renaissance, let me enlighten you about the brutality of the U.S.A. The country that hides behind declarations, constitutions, and democracy while at the same time committing genocide and horrific acts. For example In the 1950s when blacks were lynched and all the happy spectators including children would take joyous picture postcards with the twisted bodies, or when Andrew Jackson with the assistance of the army murder thousands of Indians, because he felt that they were a pox of the country. I don't even need to go on. So don't look down on the Middle Ages or the Renaissance as if your 20th and 21st century are any better, the only difference is that now people throw rocks and hide their hands.
              • Unsu...
                 

                Re: Let it be 1520 again!

                Sat, April 22, 2006 - 12:03 PM
                The 1950s when blacks were lynched? As opposed to what, the 1520s when blacks where being shipped to the West Indies because England had run out of Irish to enslave? Or 2006 when Blacks (and poor Whites) are being left to rot in Louisiana?

                As far as I am concerned, the world is no better or no worse now than it was then. So there was no deodorant - so what? Everyone smelled so no one cared. As for the environment, people were throwing their garbage into their water supplies then as now...

                History has a tendancy to be ignored and thus repeated.
          • Re: Let it be 1520 again!

            Fri, December 30, 2005 - 8:36 AM
            there that explains it all.. textbook education. I know Lee and I read far more then textbooks, we have read actually written accounts and seen the manifests of ships and merchants. Please do not belittle those who go farther in thier research then textbooks.
            • Re: Let it be 1520 again!

              Fri, December 30, 2005 - 8:47 AM
              Thank you Beth! (Good morning, BTW!)

              Oh yeah, ya want to go back to 1520, forget about ever posting on Tribe again! No computers!
              • Re: Let it be 1520 again!

                Fri, December 30, 2005 - 9:13 AM
                (quote)Oh yeah, ya want to go back to 1520, forget about ever posting on Tribe again! No computers!(quote)

                He doesnt want to go back to 1520 he just wants to whine about how his life isnt working out and he thinks he'd be better off as some pesant (after all anything is better than being a poor pathetic schmuck in western culture except being a poor pathectic schumck at periods of our past where the rule of law didnt extend to you because you were an "unperson" you know pesant, jew, black, not Catholic....)

                I wish he would give up posting, its fine if he wants to whine about his pathetic life but does he really need to do it where we have to see it in our tribes? there has to be a pathetic looser crybaby tribe around some where, let them all get togeather and cry about how unfair it is that we live in the wealthiest, safest, freest, and educated nations to ever have existed in history.
                • Re: Let it be 1520 again!

                  Fri, December 30, 2005 - 9:17 AM
                  thought I was done ranting... I'm not. The Renaissance tribe should educate you as to where you've been so you can appreciate the sacrifices of those who've come before you to earn for you from their own blood sweat and misery the blessings you enjoy today. Also if you can learn from their example and provide for the next generation then so much the better. Yes there are many things from the Renaissance that are worthy of reviving but pick and choose wisely for the good ol' days where all that good and today just isnt as bad as it may seem.
                • Re: Let it be 1520 again!

                  Fri, December 30, 2005 - 9:25 AM
                  No, I was making the point that, this society is cruel, so why do people act as if the Renaissance is so terrible. There is a great deal of injustice in the USA, however people seem to over look it.

                  You where the one that rained on the post in the first place.
                  If I like 1520, that is my delight, but for you to come here and assume to tell me otherwise is not your right.
                • Re: Let it be 1520 again!

                  Fri, December 30, 2005 - 9:38 AM
                  Why would want to be a peasant? I would fall into my families pervious role during the period.

                  They had Jewish nobility in German, and merchants.
                  They also had black clergy, etc..


                  History and collecting antiques is what I do.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    Unsu...
                     

                    Re: Let it be 1520 again!

                    Sat, April 22, 2006 - 12:30 PM
                    Who "they"?

                    I will have you know (and I probably know better than most) that there were a very VERY limited number of Black clergy in what we would now recognise as Europe in 1520.

                    Indeed, by 1520 you would only find Blacks in barely significant numbers in Spain, Portugal, Scotland and England. They were very few in number in Italy and France and next to none in Germany. In Spain and Portugal they were mainly slaves though in Lisbon and other urban areas you would find Black freedwomen running inns, huckstering etc.

                    In Scotland and England, they (we) were mainly props used to in the Courts to show of the Whiteness of the noblewomen, or they performed as musicians. Then there are the prostitutes to take into account. Blacks were not (unlike the Jews at this time) considered a financial threat yet. It would not be until Queen Elizabeth the 1st was on the throne that Black Africans would be given the boot.

                    I doubt very highly that you have actually checked the rolls to see where Blacks were, what they were doing and what status (heh) they had. I have. And I know to look at the rolls with scepticism since "in period" most times the term "blak" "moor" "negar" (and the non-English variants negro/negra, nera etc) could refer to Africans, Native Americans, Arabs/Semitics and even East Asians.

                    Tell you what: go to my website (www.kmaitland.ca) and read all the books and journals there. While you're at it, check out my short article on the University of Berne website (www.cx.unibe.ch/ens/cg/sha...tland.html)

                    History may be what you do - but early Black European history was, for almost 10 years, my life's blood. Spare me the sweeping generalisations until you can state the hard and sad facts.
                    • Re: Let it be 1520 again!

                      Fri, May 5, 2006 - 4:35 AM
                      Good posts, Kristine. I got more out of them than anything else in this long thread.

                      I'm a former medieval/Renaissance history professor, and taught these subjects for many years before I gave it up because it couldn't even pay the rent. Many academics in this field don't want to interact with people they call "hobbyists" or "reenactors," so you will find very few of them on forums like these. I disagree, though; in my view, it's always refreshing when people outside the staid academic world take an interest in the history that preoccupies the minds of people like me.

                      That said, I'm rather dismayed at the way most of the posts in this thread have beat up on Duane. I know nothing about him other than what he has said here and what I can gather from his profile, but one thing stands out: He obviously had a hideous experience with Hurricane Katrina in New Orleans. I give him kudos for not making more of it; he only mentions it once or twice in this thread, and not anywhere near his first post. How many of us would be so modest?

                      I have lived through two major natural disasters, both of which caused me to think I was certainly going to die at the time. They both pale in comparison to Hurricane Katrina, however, in terms of scale. The overwhelming thing about the Katrina disaster is that these victims were left to die by the government they trusted, and all we feared about the ever-increasing wealth gap in this country became abundantly clear.

                      I would be the last person to say that things were better 500 years ago; again, I agree with Kristine on that. But the smug posts on the rest of this thread have left a bitter taste. Who are you to condemn somebody who longs for a better time, whether that's past or future? Have you ever lost everything you had? Suddenly been deprived of all the basic necessities of life, like drinkable water, food, shelter? Ever had streams of shit (literally) flowing by you? I have. So has Duane.

                      In case any of you have forgotten after so long, here was the entirety of his original post:

                      "Well if all goes well the Renaissance as it was will come back and undo the 21st century."

                      Naive, yes. Worthy of the kind of snarkiness and penis-fencing that ensued? I don't think so. In case any of you think I'm defending Duane too blindly, I will say this, after looking at his profile: The vast majority of the dozens of "friends" icons in his profile are of young women in suggestive poses. Nothing wrong with that; I don't believe in censorship. But based on this, I would suggest to Duane that perhaps his fantasy period would be more properly based in the harem culture of the Ottoman Turks of the 16th and 17th centuries.

                      Before you all go "LMAO" or "RFLMAO" or whatever else you want to do over my above statement, let me offer this: STFU--Shut the Fuck Up. If you haven't lived through the type of pain that this guy has, I don't want to hear your condescending posts. He is not a troll--hello, have any of you read the posts of REAL trolls in other tribes?

                      And for the record, I think it would be a tough call between the plight of French peasants in 16th-century France and the poverty-stricken "French" descendants--black and white--in the Ninth Ward of New Orleans. Sure, the latter supposedly had all the modern conveniences, but that's what did them all in. Five hundred years ago, that levee wouldn't have existed, and no one would have relied on a smirking "president" to protect them from the natural elements. Granted, it took the French way too long, but at least they EVENTUALLY got rid of their Bourbon-dynasty oppressors, as barbaric as it was. I'm not suggesting any armed revolts or beheadings, but can't we at least use our so-called democratic government to oust the Bushies?
                      • Re: Let it be 1520 again!

                        Fri, May 5, 2006 - 8:43 AM
                        Really hate to add to this, but I must point out that many of us are Caifornians, and I was left homeless after the 94 quake when my building fell down around me, and had no place to live for a week, was in a red cross shelter, worried about my pets and how they were being treated, and so, thats that on the subject...

                        Life may not be perfect now, but most of us have done the studying to know it was a lot worse then.
                        • Re: Let it be 1520 again!

                          Fri, May 5, 2006 - 8:55 AM
                          I really REALLY hate to add to this thread agai, too, but, yes, I've been homeless, I've lived through a disaster or two, and while I may not be a professor of the Renaissance, MY WIFE IS, and she helped me write my posts. BTW, my wife is also a reenactor.

                          If you read the progression of posts, most of us simply responded to absurd statements, and tried to present known fact in the face of wishfull fantasy. I responded several times that Duane was welcome to HAVE his fantasies, but to impose them on a comunity as fact, would be met with fact in return. Yes, the thread got out of hand. Only Duane is to blame for that. Notice, the argument ended when he quit posting.
                          • Re: Let it be 1520 again!

                            Fri, May 5, 2006 - 12:10 PM
                            You're right Lee, the argument did end when Duane quit posting. I thought about that later this morning and tried to delete my post for exactly that reason, but couldn't find any option to do that. Sorry for prolonging it. I would delete the whole thing if I could. But since I can't, I'd like to clarify my own feelings on this.

                            Beth, I'm truly sorry to hear about your experience in the 1994 quake. I lived in Santa Cruz during the 1989 quake; that was one of the disasters I mentioned. I got out of it a lot better than many others did, but the whole thing was traumatic and still stays with me. Obviously I can still get pretty uppity about it. After watching the Katrina coverage last year, I figured if I multiplied my experiences a thousand times, that may not even come close to what some of these people experienced.

                            I don't disagree with the content of the responses to Duane. My academic focus was the European witch trials, so believe me, I'm usually the first to object when someone starts going off about how great things were in the past. In fact I was relieved that many of the reenactors on this tribe recognized immediately the problem with Duane's statements. (Many academics dislike reenactors because they think the reenactors want to actually live in the past, which I think is unfair to most reeenactors.)

                            It was the tone of some of the replies that bothered me, and I was surprised that no one made the connection to his Hurricane Katrina experiences, except to chide him for failing to recognize that he would have been far worse off in that situation in the past (an idea I find dubious at best). One common experience that I think a lot of disaster victims feel--whether the disaster is natural or manmade--is the disturbing recognition of our utter dependence on all the modern technology we have created, with the simultaneous realization that all of that can vanish in a matter of seconds. And while no one would argue that in many ways we are better equipped to deal with disastes than we were in the past (better medical care, transportation, earthquake-resistant buildings, etc.), at the same time, that very same technology increases the possibility that the disaster will happen in the first place or that the effects will be magnified (by building double-decker freeways, levees, skyscrapers, airplanes, bombs, etc.).

                            I hope we can put this whole thread behind us now, and again I apologize for prolonging it. Clearly we all share a passion for the Renaissance, so let's celebrate that.
                            • Re: Let it be 1520 again!

                              Fri, May 5, 2006 - 12:17 PM
                              Thank you. I agree.


                              Besides, if you read one of my first posts, it would debunk the idea that we would RATHER live in the past...

                              paraphrasing:
                              'As reenactors, we spend hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars to accuratly portray people, who, if they knew better, would rather be US'...
                              • Re: Let it be 1520 again!

                                Sat, May 6, 2006 - 12:45 PM
                                [quote]Besides, if you read one of my first posts, it would debunk the idea that we would RATHER live in the past...[/quote]

                                With me, I'm not exactly a "re-enactor" per se, I enjoy medieval/renaissance fantasy feel. I think we have lost some valuable traits/skills/concepts as we "modernized". I think we kinda threw the baby out with the bath water in many ways. I just kinda want to go pick the baby back up, and let the water go where it will. I'm all for crazy but fun things like jousting off the back of 4wheelers or plastic armour in combat sports. I think we should strive to keep the same look/feel of the original as I personally think the asthetics is one place we really lost some art work. Fairly certain lader hosen should never come back into fassion though ;-) We can reclame the good parts, but to return to it completely.... nah... short brutal lives with little hope of a better future.
            • Re: Let it be 1520 again!

              Fri, December 30, 2005 - 9:20 AM
              Beth then why would Lee make some statement about fruit that was totally unfounded? Did you even read his statement? If people would actually consult curators, books, and historians, etc., then one would not have to make ridiculous assumptions. People assume, and that is not research. Some of you make it seem that people did not even have gardens in these periods, or that everything people at was rotten. Or maybe you should read more eye witness accounts from different Renaissance cities. Renaissance Roma wasn't a half bad place if you could afford it.
              However maybe I mistook from whose view you are looking at it from. You don't really state it clearly. However if you are looking at it from a poor persons view it shall be bad, however being poor or living on the streets of even this time are harsh.
              • Re: Let it be 1520 again!

                Fri, December 30, 2005 - 9:31 AM
                I like the Renaissance, the building were great, the art was grand, people knew how to dress, the books were works of art. The wealthy had an appreciation for art. Also if you were lucky enough to be a noble you had all sorts of benefits.
                • Re: Let it be 1520 again!

                  Fri, December 30, 2005 - 10:32 AM
                  "I like the Renaissance, the building were great, the art was grand, people knew how to dress, the books were works of art. The wealthy had an appreciation for art. Also if you were lucky enough to be a noble you had all sorts of benefits. "

                  Agreed. No problem there.

                  However, think about Polio, mumps, rhubella, measles, small pox, etc.

                  When was the last time the plauge came through town and killed half the population?

                  I portray a very wealthy man, Baron John Lumley. Who, despite his wealth, had to watch every child he ever had die.

                  Or how about 1520 power WITH wealth. HOW many kids did Henry the 8th have? Only 3 made it to adulthood, and only one lived to old age.
                • Re: Let it be 1520 again!

                  Fri, December 30, 2005 - 11:11 AM
                  was so not gonna respond...

                  ok.. the problem is you want it to be 1520 again and the 20st century whipped out... gone pfftpp.. and if we point out why that is bad, we are ignorant and unlearned. Whereas it is from our studying of the renaissance that we know even with the issues before us now, we are at a much better place then we were 500 years ago. The renaissance was a time of great leaps of technology and science and other learnings, which is why it is called the renaissance. as an example to compare.. the printing press... suddenely more books were available and more people learned to read.. the parrallel.. the computer age, when more and more are able to communicate and share ideas and educate thenselves more easily then ever before. as to fruits and vegetables??? yes they were there... but hothouses were for the wealthly and they didnt have trucking firms and planes to get them to market in days, so you ate seasonally, so it isnt that they didnt, but they the transportation wasnt there.
                  so in a way the renaissnace and the 20th century are very closely parralled... major leaps of science and health and general knowledge.

                  so if you had perhaps said more of a comparision rather then wipe out... but do not belittle us or our education and research when you dont know ... or what we do or what we wear....

                  done with this for sure this time